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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Mar 17, 2012 9:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

Very non-Dead. Holy moley. I think I've invented a new computerese acronym ... instead of LOL, this would be EBOGOD. (Eyes Bugged Out in Googly Outrage and Dismay.)

I've always thought the whole "surprise, you're dosed, ha ha ha" thing (in the GD/SF 60s scene) was abominably thoughtless and unfunny, but at least the previously unsuspecting security guard or backstage visitor or whoever would presumably react by realizing what had happened. In that context, it wouldn't be totally out of the blue.

But the CIA's version of "surprise you're dosed and you'll never know it"? Talk about vicious. Their idea of "setting the mood" was bondage pictures?!? While agents watched from behind mirrors? Oh ho ho. And slipping something into a martini so that a random person just thinks they went crazy and has absolutely zero context?

Cruel and callous beyond belief. That poor guy. And all the other victims.



This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2012-03-18 04:49:36

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Poster: Dhamma1 Date: Mar 18, 2012 8:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

I don't have Albarelli's book handy, but my (faulty) memory says that, when one adds up all the dirty tricks like the ones in the article, all the patients in psychiatric hospitals, all the prisoners administered surreptitious doses in prisons, all the military personnel, etc., it comes to hundreds of thousands of people. The CIA funded 800 separate "research" programs at which people were unwittingly dosed or dosed against their will, 1953-1973.

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Poster: jackaroe_RI Date: Mar 18, 2012 9:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

You probably want to look at BZ for the use of chem agents in combat. It makes LSD look like a sip of wine.
Unconfirmed reports that the Serbs lobbed some rounds of this stuff into the retreating columns of civilians/soldiers in the Balkan Wars.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Mar 18, 2012 10:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

That's 800 programs of unwitting or coerced dosing? In contrast to the programs where there was consent, like Kesey at Stanford? (Did that have some level of CIA funding? I've assumed that was just straight psychology research, but I don't really know.)

But that would have been 40 new and separate programs each year for 20 years. And hundreds of thousands of people ... well, that just doesn't ring true to me. I'd have a hard time picturing more than a few thousand, even counting the willing grad-student guinea pigs. For context, in 1960, there were about 250,000 people in prisons and about 800,000 people in the Army, so "hundreds of thousands" would mean the equivalent of all the people in prison in 1960, or a third of the people in the Army, and even over a 20-year span, that just doesn't sound realistic.

But even assuming there were "only" a few hundred to a few thousand people given unnamed surprises in their martinis (or while sitting in prison cells or strapped to hospital beds), it's just so unbelievably unethical. And of course, if they HAD snuck it onto Casto's toothbrush or whatever that plan was, let's just hope he'd have had a nice salsa band around to inspire him and not a red button and a hotline to the nukes. The mind boggles.

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Poster: Dhamma1 Date: Mar 18, 2012 11:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

Wonderful criticism, AR, of my undependable memory. I'll try to grab the books this week and look it up. You're in Nepal, aren't you (or is that Ringolevio?) where the books probably aren't easy to find.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Mar 18, 2012 9:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

Yeah, that's me ... not exactly much interlibrary loan here. Or libraries. Though the bookstores are full of things that I'm sure would be "rare books" in your parts.

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Poster: leftwinger57 Date: Mar 18, 2012 5:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

I agree.Getting dosed when either you don't want it or totally not expecting it can turn into something very very ugly. I think the determining factors would clearly be state of mind at the time vs. the strength of the dose. I had a friend who would do shit like that and I made it vey clear that he was to stay away from me if he was in his dosing mood. I've seen enough,tigers walking out of their stripes,stone lions start roaring and sitting in the middle of MOMA just gawking at the Jackson Pollack exibit not to mention all the shows I've seen and just the thrill of getting there where we had to take the subway w/ the paiseley and glitter in the floors,just laughing uncontroled w/ all kinds of people looking at us and we'd start to peak just getting to the Fillmore.Covert dosing is not a good thing and we know the story of soldiers getting it and the CIA trying to use it as a weapon in mind control.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Mar 18, 2012 10:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

The worst thing, though, is that even "state of mind" wouldn't make much difference if you had no way of knowing what was happening -- if it was 1953 and you'd never heard of LSD, had no clue why your perceptions were changing, and no one popped out from behind the curtain to go, "gotcha! Now let me tell you what's up. Remember that drink you just had?" Without any context to let you know you weren't going nuts, there'd just be no way to process it. Unless maybe you happened to be Joan of Arc.

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Poster: leftwinger57 Date: Mar 19, 2012 5:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SF CIA LSD (non-Dead?)

Agreed...